Curse

Mythics · Mar 29, 2007, 06:42 PM // 18:42

From what I've seen thus far about GW2, they're going to do their best to appease PvP players in the form of UAS and PvE players in the form of wii like grind elements.

Wii as in the Wii, but also like weeeeeee.

When I start a game, I don't want to jump around and act silly. I want to see just how deep the storyline is. I want to feel like I'm actually in the world. Yes, realism can take a hike when it's an element like traveling from city to city, but when it's something like a quest.. I want to enjoy reading about what I'm doing, why, who I'm doing it for, etc. GW1 is too easy to just accept and go, figure it out based on the quest log (a summarized version of just what you have to do to continue).

I don't want to be a goof ball unless that's just my mood. I want some strategy to be in the game, or I won't be..

Winstar · Mar 29, 2007, 06:46 PM // 18:46

this sounds like crap....i like reading lots of text and having a complex rule system to keep track of.

MSecorsky · Mar 29, 2007, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I think it'll be more like Oblivion, if anything:

Move Right + Attack = Disarm
Move Forward + Attack = Charge Attack

Maybe things along those lines. It would be pretty silly to have to press "1-1-2-click" to do a move.

But how could this possibly work with, say, a mesmer casting spells?

(Think Ineptitude... doesn't do anything unless the target actually attacks)

Archangel Xavier · Mar 29, 2007, 06:58 PM // 18:58

I think the limited number of skills idea has seen its days. However with the way this emergent complexity system sounds I'll be missing the days of the metagame and buildwars. Hopefully emergent complexity will hold onto the complexity and maintain an intuitive "emergent." The conditionals that come with complex skills allow for numerous and ingenious synergies. While this may deter some people from playing GW2 if it isn't properly managed, the accessibility of GWs finer moments to the non-strategist masses thus far leaves me feeling good about their implementation of any future complex skill systems.

Grammarye · Mar 29, 2007, 07:43 PM // 19:43

I've always been pleased that GW had such a good and varied skill system (balancing aside) and yet forced the player to think, to pick 8 skills that work well (or be boring and use 8 that someone else picked), with well-thought-out names that actually in many cases taught some english vocabulary even to those who speak it natively, and had precise effects that you could therefore know would combine well.

Why do we play GW? There are so many reasons for so many different people that it's a very hard question to answer. For me, I work, have a life, and can't spend hours every day grinding any aspect of any game, be it levels, titles, or in this possible case, skills. I play PvP and PvE, and all I really want is a game where I can come home, socialise in the GW world for a bit, do something interesting like a mission with friends, and then reluctantly get back to the real world. Do I get value for money? Absolutely.

Quote:

"...Speaking of running around the world, that's something you'll actually be able to do; run, jump, basically just dork around however you like. When you land in a new world, O'Brien explained, you don't want to have to read a bunch of skill descriptions, you want to run around and jump and swing, so that's what you'll be able to do in Guild Wars 2. It's meant to be a learn-by-doing sort of situation--rather than have overly complex skills that take an excessive amount of brain matter to understand..."

As many have pointed out it's all years away from even beta so who really knows. Two possibilities come to mind in ways it could go that would be bad in my opinion: either like Morrowind or Oblivion, or like Black and White (there are probably better examples than this but I haven't played them).

Lets assume for a moment that it's like Morrowind, where you learn skills by doing stuff, and improve them as you do them more. I know how much I play GW and how much I play Morrowind, and the reason is quite simple. I don't need a real life simulator; if I want to run around and jump (and possibly swing axes - don't try this at home kids) I can do that in real life. If I want to spend days practicing a skill so that I become good at it, I can do that in real life. It's called exercise. If Morrowind was hooked up to the Wii, then I could see the point as I'd actually be gaining some benefit from it.

The alternative is that it's closer to Black and White, an environment where you could do an awful lot but had no idea what it would do until you tried it. Just casting a fireball, well, casts a fireball, but cast it whilst jumping and it does something different? It's an interesting concept but one that is likely to frustrate more than be fun if not carefully done. It implies combos of moves, precise timing, and other things along those lines. I agree with others that we don't need a button masher; I was always very happy with GW that I could often be quite relaxed with some professions and just tap away at keys as the need arose.

The above sounds very negative, so I want to finish on a positive note and say that I do remember that this is the development team that gave us GW in the first place, and that we should withhold judgement until more than a few phrases of concept are thrown about

Domino · Mar 29, 2007, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

you don't want to have to read a bunch of skill descriptions, you want to run around and jump and swing, so that's what you'll be able to do in Guild Wars 2. It's meant to be a learn-by-doing sort of situation--rather than have overly complex skills that take an excessive amount of brain matter to understand..."

Please don't dumb down the game so more inept 12 year olds can ruin my gameplay experience with their stupidity and ignorance.

and since when are skill descriptions complicated or annoying? That's like saying traffic signs are big and scary and complicated. You read em, get the info, and apply it... it's not rocket science, my head never asploded trying to read a skill description...

Kool Pajamas · Mar 29, 2007, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Auspicious incantation was a bit much the first time I read it lol. But other than that I agree skill descriptions arent complicated at all. I like it exactly how it is.

Bryant Again · Mar 29, 2007, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

But how could this possibly work with, say, a mesmer casting spells?

(Think Ineptitude... doesn't do anything unless the target actually attacks)

See that's what I was thinking about.

Ok, this all sounds *great* for melee combat, whipping up a bunch of moves and what not.

But what about everyone else? How are they going to make shooting a bow, or casting spells fun and interactive?

My only guess right now for that would be button mashing. Not too innovative in my opinion, especially compared to how it sounds melee combat will be.

They might just have spell combat be simply the pushing of the spell's icon. Red also thought of the idea of spell combonations. Or they might do nothing, and the only fun and satisfaction you're supposed to get out of it is the power of the spell - Let's hope that's not the case.

I actually wish they didn't mention that in the interview. We have enough small details on GW2 already. Why highten the suspense?

Scourgey · Mar 29, 2007, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by beginners_luck

What would be amazing would be spellcasting via mouse gestures. I think Black and White did that, where you press control, for instance, swirl the mouse around, and you cast a spell. Spells with longer cast times could have more complicated gestures. Of course, that seems to fly in the face of them wanting to simplify skill descriptions.

But, how are you going to be able to detect people who use scripts with perfect motions to cast spells?

an sun · Mar 29, 2007, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Didn't ANet already said in one of the interviews they want gw to stay an rpg and not transform it into fps or something like that? So I guess you can forget about '1, 1 + click' to use a skill.

Kityn · Mar 29, 2007, 09:32 PM // 21:32

As for jumping and casting for Caster class. Imagine clicking on jump and a Fire Magic skill. The result could be Firestorm or a Meteor shower. Jump when combined with an attack skill does not necessarily mean you will actually be jumping.

placebo overdose · Mar 29, 2007, 09:35 PM // 21:35

k i dont know if this has been said yet or not

but... dont fix something that is not broken
who here thinks that the skill system is bad/broken? i would hope not many
that is what i have noticed alot of these changes they are thinking of implementing are not making a guildwars two yet a totally different game then what so many people already love

lightblade · Mar 29, 2007, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

But how could this possibly work with, say, a mesmer casting spells?

(Think Ineptitude... doesn't do anything unless the target actually attacks)

We'll have a special key for spell casting (say...TAB). Everytime you want to cast a spell, you hit tab and enter a sequence of keys...and you have your spell cast. The target of your spell will be highlighted by your mouse with a crosshair or something...

zwei2stein · Mar 29, 2007, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Caster "emerging complexity" can be something that was done in old Dungeon Master - you get light spell which consists of two runes, you add third rune meaning distance and you got flare.

You add another rune for area and its fireball, choose to invest 25 mana isntead of 15 and you casted rogdorts invocation.

of use different rune for area and its firestorm.

then choose to invest 25 mana and exchaustonn instead of standart cost and you got meteor shower.

You cold get a lot of scaling from spell by simple cahncing their behaviour under differenct costs - 5 energz DOT aoe would behave differently than 5 energy where you add exchaustion, even if it would be same skill.

Bryant Again · Mar 29, 2007, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by placebo overdose

k i dont know if this has been said yet or not

but... dont fix something that is not broken
who here thinks that the skill system is bad/broken? i would hope not many
that is what i have noticed alot of these changes they are thinking of implementing are not making a guildwars two yet a totally different game then what so many people already love

Nothing's broken. They're just trying something new.

MSecorsky · Mar 29, 2007, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by lightblade

We'll have a special key for spell casting (say...TAB). Everytime you want to cast a spell, you hit tab and enter a sequence of keys...and you have your spell cast. The target of your spell will be highlighted by your mouse with a crosshair or something...

Well that about kicks "Fast Casting" right in the nuts now, doesn't it!

What a hideous concept... let us pray to the gods they don't invoke such madness.

semantic · Mar 29, 2007, 10:41 PM // 22:41

There's one example of, if not emergence, at least evolution that's been in the game since launch. Pets evolve into 1 of basically 3 end states depending on how you play. If you take a lot of damage while the pet evolves, it tends to go toward Dire. If the pet takes most of the damage, it tends toward Hearty, etc. Studious people took the time to test and document pet evolution (on this site in particular) so that they could direct the evolution of their pet toward a desired result, but I imagine the designers conceived it as something approaching an element in an emergent system. The important thing is, the final state of your evolved pet should complement your play style, not dictate it. Warriors who fight with a pet would likely see their pet evolve toward Dire, while Rangers or Monks most likely end up with Hearty pets more often than not.

If the underlying mechanics of the skill (and presumably also attribute, possibly class) system behaved this way from the beginning, it would definitely lead to more 'discovery' and less dependence on reading. I could see them hoping to develop a game system that tailors itself to your individual play style. By introducing a few fundamental skills early in the game that everyone has access to, and then allowing those skills to essentially 'evolve' into higher forms with not only more power but more varied functionality depending on how you used them over time, they might create a much more open-ended game.

The problem with language precision and arcane skill descriptions goes beyond being a barrier to new players (which it probably is). The skill language reflects the problem they've run into after designing 10 classes. It's not the cause of that part of the problem, just a reflection of it. They've created a closed system. It's still very interesting in itself, but it's hard to grow beyond its current state. The interconnections are just getting too complex to maintain a balanced structure. So it sounds like they want to take a shot at creating an open-ended one.

In that kind of game, the 'emergent complexity' won't manifest itself in things like Touchers, but in the skills themselves. Potentially, you could develop skills (which is to say, effects) that nobody else in the game has, or will ever develop. Obivously not sure if they intend to go that far with it.

Rhedd · Mar 30, 2007, 04:34 AM // 04:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

Oh so you have industry experience? Good. So you undoubtedly know what designers are like in terms of pragmatic thinking (and also their schizophrenic tendencies in the early stages). I don't think there's much to worry about.

The game that has so far been described is a 'different' beast to Guild Wars. While the conceptual whispers may appal the community, nobody can deny that their context is still Guild Wars. The beast that will be Guild Wars 2 is an unknown quantity.

Concerning voicing of opinions: Well... How many people are discerning enough in their vision to know what they will like or dislike? Especially in an environment that is currently vacuous. Sounds like an easy question but it's not and I'd wager not that many. Then there's the designers again. As you say, you've worked in the industry so I'd imagine you know what they're like. I'll leave it at that...

Yes, I have industry experience, and I do know what designers are like...

And I'M the one telling you to voice concerns now, not later.

What should you infer from that? Think hard. ^_^

Bryant Again · Mar 30, 2007, 04:39 AM // 04:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhedd

Yes, I have industry experience, and I do know what designers are like...

And I'M the one telling you to voice concerns now, not later.

What should you infer from that? Think hard. ^_^

Don't mess with red, boi!

I still wish ANet didn't announce this, though. Look how worried we all are. More tidbit information = lose.

arcanemacabre · Mar 30, 2007, 04:42 AM // 04:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhedd

And I'M the one telling you to voice concerns now, not later.

Oh... In that case:

Everyone at Anet - Please do what you feel is best for your business and the players. That is all.